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amasiko, ancestors,culture and the modern man

Written by tha - bang from the blog blah blah on 14 Aug 2008
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In my little time on earth there are stuff that I struggle with, one has been the issue of relating to ones culture or traditional heritage or believes which come in conflict with my religious believes. It has led to sometimes people accusing me of being less African or even feeling that what is really loosing out on what being Tswana is?.

Lets take the idea of ancestors or badimo in setswana I really don’t know much about them but I really have a huge problem with the idea of eternal spirits looking out for me and making sure that everything works out for me. Whom once in a while need some form of acknowledgement Cause the bible clearly state the dead are but sleeping and so with any man who is asleep. The dead have no conscious or even aware of their surrounding. Solomon in Ecclesiasts 3 :19 -21 clearly demonstrates that mans mortality is the same as any other living creature. The difference being that we have a hope in a Christ who lived, died and was resurrected. Who promises the same to us and to take us out of this world one day.


I’ve heard people debating the issue of the soul that maybe when we die our souls live on and they become our guardians and so forth. But isn’t it that the same old lie Lucifer told Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? That if they eat of the fruit of good and evil they shall not surely die. For if the reward of sin is death then Ezekial 18 : 20 clearly states that a soul that sinneth shall die. But then what is a soul

I believe if we look at the garden of Eden when Adam was made he became a living soul after life was breathed into him by God. So a soul is the conscious being that is made by the combination of the breath of life and a consciousness. So we are all living souls that die due to sin.

But is culture only limited to the belief in ancestors and if you don’t do that it means one has lost all concept of ones culture? I don’t think so. There is still language, norms and ideas that are passed from one generation to another that are distinctly and specifically culturally specific. From how we treat strangers and our elders, to the over hyped idea of Ubuntu. To music, dance but most importantly we constantly change and adapt culture. Look at the Europeans who a couple of centuries back believed in ancestors, witchcraft and ritual sacrifice and it was not so long ago were twins were seen as abomination that needed to be killed at birth and lets not talk about the role of women in African tradition or the world in general.
So things change, it does not make us less of anything, so I believe in Christ. That does not make me less of an African, but an African that believes in Christ.




54 Comments

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 02:52

any takers

Nonny
14 Aug 2008 02:59

Nice blog Tha - bang, but ke I have chosen to a silent blogger on topics regarding "religion, culture & heavy politics".......coz what may work for u, may not work for me. And what u may believe in, I probablly don't, so why debate the matter????

felfel
14 Aug 2008 03:08

I feel you Nonny nam I'll try my best to be silent on this one, just read and learn. I know my views and i'm not shaken not even stirred on them. and I shall not shake or stir others on theirs. 

But good one Thabang........let me read on

Cande
14 Aug 2008 03:09

tis a tough one coz i have alot of unanswered questions regarding religion & tradition.
e.g how do i know if badimo ba phela?? who wrote the bible..e.t.c 
I'll pass

andi01
14 Aug 2008 03:16

I think that most black people have been confused into thinking that amasiko is agains Christianity, which is not the case. But we do similar things differently and we call same people with different names. i.e

Jehova=Thixo=Nkulunkulu=Modimo=Qamata

In Xhosa no one has ever seen Qamata (same as noone has ever seen God), but we have same faith that he is the father of us all. He is looking after us and we also need to praise and respect him.

In the olden days, during times like (drought), people will go up to the mountains, they would spend days without eating just praying to Qamata to bring rain. on the last day a huge feast will be prepared for everyone to eat and enjoy themselves.

Christians also do something similar, and they call it fasting.

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 03:18

Nice blog Tha - bang, but ke I have chosen to a silent blogger on topics regarding "religion, culture & heavy politics".......coz what may work for u, may not work for me. And what u may believe in, I probablly don't, so why debate the matter????
i hear what u have to say but i do feel its sometimes nice to try and reason with others to see the other side of the fence.sweet

andi01
14 Aug 2008 03:19

Also some people say they dont believe in making uMqombothi for teh ancestors.

The reasons to make that Mqombothi is to bring those of the same blood together. To come home and reminisce about the past and introduce abanye kwabanye. People drink and get jolly and at the end of the day they all sing church hymns, there is no hidden agenda behind uMqombothi. before teh ceremony begins the elder of teh family says a prayer.

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 03:27

so andi01 u dont see anything wrong with the mixing of the two?

andi01
14 Aug 2008 03:32

@ tha-bang so andi01 u dont see anything wrong with the mixing of the two, I dont see it as mixing the two, but I do whatever I know I ahve to do knowing that these two arent against one another. The thing is some of us believe in Jesus Christ, while I think Jesus Christ comes from the Jewish stories and I dont think there was a black Jesus. Yesu is just a translation of the Jewish Jesus. Secondly I know that I dont need (Jacob/ Mark) telling me how I am suppose to leave. When God aka Qamata created me, he used his holly spirit to annoint me with what he expects from me. We are created with negateive and positive thought, it is up to you which side wins. if you choose good over bad you'll have a good life ahead, but if bad influences your choices, ur life will be so miserable that you'll think you are in hell.

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 03:38

But then do you still belive in concept of heaven and the 2nd coming?

Segololo
14 Aug 2008 03:44

Andi - For the first time, in a long time, I am in awe of you... You have written my every single thought and belief without ridiculing another... (Don't take this the wrong way :-)

I completely agree..

Simmone
14 Aug 2008 03:51

I do not see anything wrong with mixing my Christian beliefs with my heritage. My ancestral roots defined who I am and what I am and I cannot run away from that, but Christianity sustains my spiritual beliefs and form part of my core system in terms of morality and wellbeing.

I may add that Christianity has not only affected African culture but other religions as well, take Islam, Buddhism and Hindu. The main fundamental of Christianity is the anti-worship of gods or a statue which for me is the main reason some Christian churches shun African culture because they believe if you observe your cultural beliefs you are worshiping a god.

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 03:53

With me the way i see it is that we were made in God's image and we owe everything to God.If God send his son to die for us and all he asks us is to keephjis commandment,show love to one another and spread the word of his second coming. That is all I need.
If things do not fall in line with that, they need to be set aside,but it was interesting chatting with you Andi01

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 03:58

But isn't culture a composite of many things instead of just ne single entity?I mean I may not do the whole sacrificing stuff for ancestors and all but I am going to pay bogadi/lobola when I get married.Raise my kids to respect their elders.Believe in communal partnerships than individualicism.
Is culture only distilled and confined to religion?

andi01
14 Aug 2008 04:02

@the bang, when Jesus christ came, he said "I havent come to change your beliefs and culture, but I am sent by God to come and save you". And not save us from our cultures and beliefs that are killing us, but save us from our selves. From destrpoying the temple that God created in our bodies. 

Heritage is against tatoos (body piercing)and so is christianity the reason being we are spoling the temple that God aka Qamata created in us. 
Isiko is against young people drniking, drugging, adultery and sex before marriage and so is christianity.

On the easter when christians come 2geda and celebrate the death of their King Jesus Christ (whom they never seen), is considered a great thing. But when i go home ngo December and slaughter a cow and throw a feast rememebering my late father, i am considered as a satanist. Thats unfair. Coz I am doing what christians are doing but the difference is the person i am slaughetring for.

andi01
14 Aug 2008 04:07

I beleive that there is devil the same way i believe that there is witchcraft. The devil is not only lucifer, it is that man that looks at a 3 year old and decide to rape and kill her.

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 04:27

andi01 u make interesting points, i think we've most of people.the issue is not remembering our fathers or grandparents butthe issue is treating them as if they can still see and hear us and somehow help us beyond the grave.
cause even abraham had a monument for his departed wife

tizoz
14 Aug 2008 04:31

The debate of ancestors is very interesting like you said some people tend to think religion and culture sre the same things whereas these are two different thigs.

Let me talk about myself, I am a member of Catholic religion or church, and back in the days it was a big no no to do things that are related to culture but it seems the Vatican is realising that yes we do have members in Africa and before we colonised and brainwashed them they had their beliefs so the best thing to do is to maybe let them be and try and accomodate them. To this day my famly is very religious but we aalso respect cultural related issues. Siyahlaba for amadlozi, my mother wenza umageba (umqombothi) once in a while just to have that smell and show appreciation cause her husband used to drink the stuff....

I remember a year after my dad passed away, I was visiting home and this man said I was by the graveyard and I saw your dad's grave needs to be cleaned, go there and clean it and you will have good luck. I went there and there were few weeds I cleaned the grave and spoke to my dad while I was there, A month later I got a job offer out of the blue that paid me more than double the salary I was getting and my life was turned aroung just like that. That made me realise things may change we may evolve but we still need to respect where we come from.

To this day I speak to him when things dont go my way and say dude look out for me I need you to look out for me.

Well I know it might have been co-incidence but if you believe in your ancestors and cultural related issues they will work for you. as well as if you dont believe in them I doubt it makes any difference in your life.

So it is different strokes for different folks.

Cande
14 Aug 2008 04:37

interesting

andi01
14 Aug 2008 04:43

And some of us our ancestirs were Cjristians even church reverends

tshepiso
14 Aug 2008 05:39


."Lets take the idea of ancestors or badimo in setswana I really don’t know much about them but I really have a huge problem with the idea of eternal spirits looking out for me and making sure that everything works out for me."

Nice one Thabang, next time, you should discuss topics which you're sure of. OK OKEYYYYY "SWEET"

"And some of us our ancestirs were Cjristians even church reverends"andi01 what's wrong Mr Dictionery?Ao tagilwe mmmmmmmmmmm?????

tha - bang
14 Aug 2008 05:51

tshepiso do u have to be rude about it,its so unbecoming. eish batho ba bangwe

Cande
14 Aug 2008 05:52

Tshepiso.. double LOL

Nonny
14 Aug 2008 05:58

I like the responses, very interesting read...........

andi01
14 Aug 2008 06:06

Ao tagilwe - please translate. @ tshepiso whatever your isssues are,  you should sort them out with iDlozi lakho, it has become your habit to spoil other peoples articles, i am sure that is caused by that "envious", feeling you possess, since you lack the ability to write your own articles. people say what they feel like and it is their freedom to do so. Your rude-ness will not be tolerated on this great article. Tha-bang- chose honesty and integrity amongst it all and he was honest about what he knows and what he doesnt and we should respect that and state our opinions without being rude.  OK Mr Dictionery.

myname
14 Aug 2008 06:09

Say that again Cande its really interesting but im clueless shame so i wil thatha ikhava & read your replies.........@ TB Nice 1 man & dont 4get each blog has its own zombie so i think u shuld ignore .................Its time 4 lunch guys ....

Mathaz
14 Aug 2008 06:15

I don't practice any ancestoral rituals but do preserve some of my cultural beliefs which won't clash with my spirituality (christianity). 

Cande
14 Aug 2008 06:52

Ao tagilwe - please translate. are you drunk?

Cody
14 Aug 2008 08:31

Extremely interesting Thabang and very debatable, i was like you before i understood the whole process, andi o opile kgomo lenaka. It is true that Christianity is confused with culture in some cases. I was so unsettled when i had to recently had to make mokete wa badimo, until i understood the whole concept (speaking for myself). 

As a christian things that makes us afraid of practicing our culture is that we feel like we are betraying God, but we are not. I guess sometimes we just have to go thru it in order to understand what is happening, because we believe that we pray at the graves,but its not done like that, you dont go to the grave and say "modimo so and so" , you dont go down on your knees, you dont sing a hymn(there isnt even a hymn for the dead person) you only preserve those things for God,  so i cant say you are betraying God because you are not using his name when "talking" to the spirit that has passed on.

okay, when we went to my mothers grave, we first prayed to God, and in my dad's prayer he told God that we are not here to pray the person  that is lying here, we are here because we remember the love and life they gave us & the value that they have brought to our lives. we are here to pay respect, not to worship them.
he then went on to say. Matlhaku, here is your child Cody she is here to thank you for everything that you have done for her while you are still alive, so i believe that even in your after life you will remember her and guide her as she is growing under the guidence of God.........in short that is just to say, we know that you are not the one with the power hence my moeder must protect me under God's guidence.

Another thing, i believe that the spirit of that person lives on because most of the time the term death is referred to as sleep (e.g John 11:11-14 it says our friend lazarus sleepeth) so sleep is temporary and i think it was referred to as sleep because the souls of those who died will only get saved on judgement day, so the spirit lives on until the day comes,but the flesh will turn into dust because that is how we were created (that is my opinion) some people believe the spirit goes to heaven first. there is a lot of questions on the bible itself, which i will not get to because it will seem like im questioning the word of god, why dont they just call God. God, why God of Jabob, God of David etc? so i think its its like us saying modimo wa bo ntata rona.

so in reality there is no one who is right and who is wrong, all religions (muslims, hindu's etc) believe that their way is the only way to go to heaven

another thing in the bible they did make sacrifices they did slaughter cows and sheep so its not a crime really.

i've said too much will listen then add after, i have a lot to say.

tha - bang
15 Aug 2008 01:25

Cody heres what I believe nhe:

The slaughtering of cows and sacrifices were to point out to Jesus dieing for us on the cross.hence after his death sacrifices were stopped.

death is sleep in the sense that when we die now we are not complete lost or eradicated until the second comng.those who are just will wake and go to heaven and join those whoare alive .But the final death after armaggeddon isthe final one where there is no waking up from.

I believe in there being no conscousness beyond the grave.the bible even clearly denounces talking to spirit and try to contact the dead. a good examle is what happened to saul when he wanted to talk to the dead samuel and witch brought up a spirit that resembles samuel which mislead saul.

the issue of all path lead to heaven for me is very dodgy cause christ says it clearly in black and white that none cometh to the Father without him.If Christ isthe son of God and He's death saves us all,as Adam sin condemened us all.Do you believe that the prophet Mohammed, Budha and etc can lay such a claim.That their death and resurection was what acted as reconciliation between man and God.I don't think so.

I believe theres nothing that the dead can do for us cause they themselves are not even aware of their state hence the sleep likeness

heavenly
15 Aug 2008 19:33

i also dont practice izinto zesintu(spiritually), but-ke its too confusing if it hasn't been revealed. i salute people like you tha-bang who r able to put it out there.

what aka mathata
17 Aug 2008 13:00

guys i just bump to one SA ex celeb she look fabulous,ke tla ntsha mogozi next time

ancestors, amasiko......aish im shaking,mathata fela guys,yes i have so much to say,life is a learning process,you can ask why, why me,sometimes we got confused,n i was one of those ppl,

1998,i went to my aunti the was this (jwala ba digarafu)is like they do ceremony after funeral,something like that,this story pains me a lot,the day of ceremony in the morning i try to wake in the morning,ha?that day it was a disaster for me ,skirlek out of the blue,im sick my body cant move,everything it just happen fast,all reletive was there,Boragadi they make this a joke ,hai wena Mathata dont fake this,we know you skirlek wa kula ,you are crazy,....yes sometimes im F$#& crazy but that day i was sick,i cant talk,what realy happened.....ME DONT KNOW,they took me to garankuwa hospitaal,when we came back no one was talking,DR said maybe im tired.....hai Mathata fela

everyone was worried,gore what is going on,i took a nap,i slept maybe 3hrs,guess what?

MODIMO WA PHELA,ANCESTORS ARE THERE,in my nap i went n i saw a different world,that world was like,everthing was white,i saw a big white gate has to side ,it was like a lost,that gate opened into two side,i saw ppls sitting on a big sofa,that sofa it was like a (ex, when a family took photo)i saw all my family who past away,i started to say,that time i great them,.....hai uncle,gogo,all of them they where sitting n standind there,

so i ask them may i have space to seat on the sofa with them,..........they said go back where you belong,you dont belong here because you didnt finish  to do your JOB,skirlek their hands move,they do bye bye,just like that

I wake n call my aunti,that time my body can move,skirlek ke fodile,so i start to tell ragadi that i was  dead n i was  in heaven,yooooooo RAGADI,started to shout......ngwana wa abut taka o tleke ka metlholo waitsi,leave me alone let me go n finish my beer,that time i want someone to hear what i was saying,i was not faking my sikness.

so that time i cant to talk to my granny,ke mzalwani,i called my uncle that i saw,maria. jocob all people who past away  long time ago,for him i must explain how who was look like,i start to explain their identity,he was shocked,

I told my family they said im crazy as usual,is not possible,life moves on, but when timeS go,at night i started to see the BONES,WHAT?IYOO my mom was angry when i told her every night i saw the bones,are o tletse ka metlholo ngwana ke wena.

Every day n night it started to be a fight.....in Jesus name,in jesus name,i pray like hell,i said GOD use me in different way pls im young why me,why me,god did hear my prayers,he use me in the different way,now

ancestors is a real thing,god is a real thing,i have a way to work for amasiko and i let GOD to be a driver,but about ,i do respect them,

we dont know who  GOD is,but the are people who are chosen to see them,sometimes you can meet homeless person ,n say hurtful words to him,who knows maybe is GOD ,thats why we must respect anyone in this planet,you will never know who you messing with,

ancestors,when i was young,i hate it,but is a real thing ,is up to you how you handle it,go to www.lisawilliams.com.you will know what im taliking about.

for me Mathata,im proud bcs last years i told my mom n my aunti about what i have seen when i went to heaven,today they believe in me ,when i say example..red is blood,white is angels,sometimes if i saw you i can tell you indirect or
send you sms,bcs sometimes i feel guilty,if i dont say at all,for example with words,i call in direct,thats why they said go back where you belong n do your work,everything i have doesn"t belong to me alone I LIKE TO SARE ,because of GOD, ancestors.im who iam today,but

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 13:58

Mathata,  damn, you wrote a whole article!

what aka mathata
17 Aug 2008 14:37

ish,kgale ke dibona,dala ngisbona,atleast la a TVSA is conffession church,it heals a lot

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 14:39

LOL, Mathata, if you say so, girl,..

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 15:01

Haibo Mathata, you've been to HEAVEN?

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 15:13

Firstdvd, she saw the LIGHT,...  so she must have saw HEAVEN. 

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 15:16

"RESPECTing homeless and everyone in this planet...You will never know who you messing with" really love that one Mathata. Sweet!

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 15:26

WSG, what if she went there? Ex-former heaven, Angel Mathata lol......But i think you right WSG, light + nap = ?

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 15:31

Firstdvd,... I think she is there right now,.. she did say she is tired..

Brown Shuga
17 Aug 2008 15:31

Hahahahahahahahahah what??? Mathata went to heaven??? kwa kwa kwa kwa

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 15:33

BS,... ah no,.. you can't laugh, it is a serious matter

Brown Shuga
17 Aug 2008 15:47

@ Mathata:
<<<I told my family they said im crazy as usual>>
How can your family say you're crazy mara...

<<<we dont know who GOD is,but the are people who are chosen to see them,sometimes you can meet homeless person ,n say hurtful words to him,who knows maybe is GOD ,thats why we must respect anyone in this planet,you will never know who you messing with>>> Very true Mathata, too true!

<<IM SORRY FOR SPELLING,IM TIRED>>>LOL You are exempt from any rules about spelling Thatas, oska wara!

Brown Shuga
17 Aug 2008 15:50

Umm..eish ja, sorry Mathata, didn't mean to laugh...something was in my eye.

what aka mathata
17 Aug 2008 15:53

joke or not.you laugh or not,amasiko,ancestors,culture,thats why i said you believe it or not,but is not surprise that i expert anyone to believe,because even my family first time it was a joke,but im happy it did happen at the right time.

thats  why they are chosen ppl in this planet,if i can ask ,Do you think SANGOMAS they fake whatever they are doing?NO,I NEVER BEEN IN TRADITIONAL HEALER,I DONT LIKE IT,BUT I RESPECT THEM,

OK this situation really schooled me,im happy for ppl who make joke with things like this,i dont think the is anyone who knows heaven,but what i was trying to say,i was trying to explain what i seen

but is good it happened to me,if you are not hungry dont talk about porverty 

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 15:57

Welcome back mathata.  I must say, I respect your work,... hmm,... Sangomas are not faking their work?  Really,..  I thought differently... tell me more...

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 15:59

MATHATA, You can be serious sometimes neh? and funny @ the same time ;-)

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 16:06

I love your comments/replies mathata

what aka mathata
17 Aug 2008 16:27

to be honest dala ngisbona,i know sometimes  i can be biach,it touch me a lot when ppl have problems,iv been there,but sometimes ppls the see like they are only one who has problems,but if someone reveal , someone  can says if she did I CAN.

HOW many  PPL THEY BEEN RAPED,BEAT ,ABUSED,HOMELESS,DROP OUT OF SCHOOL,SICK,even today they still blame the same old situation,they cant move on

BUT IF ME Mathata  standup n say iv been there,i  did fall ,but today i did standup n walk tall,someone can say ,if she did it why cant i do it,you dont have to believe in ppl ,before you believe in yourself.

sometimes ppl say i did reveal alot,but someone can came out of closet afer she hear what was going on in my life,but today because of all bad situation,IM SOMEONE,i dont have to blame anyone,i take it as PART OF LIFE

what aka mathata
17 Aug 2008 16:34

can someone pls tells  MALEMA to respect older ppl,bcs it can happen he mess up with GOD.LOL.

WhiteSockGirl
17 Aug 2008 16:36

Mathata, will have to re-read this your wise word tomorrow.  Too late, my brain is tired now.

Firstdvd
17 Aug 2008 16:40

There you go WSG...

Hundred
19 Jul 2010 15:30

Dear Bro. Thabang,
I think you should stick to your guns and don't let yourself be swayed by people that try to tell you who you are or must be. Your Christian position is ok and I think you have the right understanding of the Christian position vs all other religions. Christianity and African tradition are two different things and should never be mixed by a practicing Christian. I know that there many supposed to be Christians that mix the two, which is totally wrong, and amounts to contradicting oneself. Mixing (called syncretism) the two is like mixing oil and water. So, you must belong to either of the two, not both.

Many people try to double cross Jesus, hoping to win either way, but I can tell you, it does not work that way. People doing that are those who focus on themselves, so that if it suits them, then they do it and if it does not, then they reject it - it's not on basis that it's the right thing for Christ.

Being African or black has nothing to do with what you practice in terms of your belief. Culture is simply a away of life; it is not static and, like a language, it evolves with times. It belongs to any body that associates with and undertakes to practice its values and norms. It's simply a way of life, as defined by circumstances over time. It's never fixed but evolves as some of the things that inform it become irrelevant, meaningless, or less appealing to those living at the time. 

For instance, there many things that were part of culture among black people here in South Africa some hundreds of years ago, but have become obsolete and new ways have taken their place. For instance, ask any person practising African culture and using "Umqombothi" as part of it why they do this, because many years ago, there was no such a thing, and people drank "Amasi". They won't want to stop using it because it suits them now, not the ancestors.
Another example is "Imbeleko". This was done only  because there were no blankets to carry a baby those days, but now we have too many blankets around. People still use it simply because it suits them.

In actual fact people choose and adopt these practices and repeat them over time, selecting those that work and discarding those that don't. Practices that work well for the people get retained and passed on to the next generation, and so on. These practices gradually become a way these people identify themselves and describe their whereabouts or family tree (iziduko) when they meet another group unknown to them, with a purpose to establish wether they are related or not.
This process happens to all human races, but then certain races emphasise some aspects more than others and so so on. So, for instance,  white do have "iziduko" (whereabouts or family tree), but for them it's less of importance to emphasise to a point of involving rituals and supersititions.

So, over time people started introducing other rituals and superstitutions and called all of this "culture".

For that matter, we all come from central or northern Africa, yet when people tell you and brag about their history, they can only tell you about South Africa or one of the provinces, and even so they don't know much. So, why try to make it look like they know themselves when they lost a significant part of who they really are. Many have been adopted or have adopted their mother's clan names (isiduko) , so how does one then turn around and claim that they really know their roots? This is hypocricy!!

So stop bothering yourself with labels people put on you, YOU ARE WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE, not what other people think you are or must be!!!

Good luck and God Bless you.



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