Gareth Cliff Calls GOD petty!

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 02:21

I like Gareth! I like his sarcasm, his monotone and frankly i wish more breakfast hosts were as outspoken. Sure, he may have offended a lot of people but if he had said the same thing about Satan, would all christians/spiritualists be offended? Nope.

So, in essence i don't see what the problem is because it is a widely known fact that not everyone believes in the existence of God. most people believe in science and don't believe in anything they can't prove/disprove either way.

spice
12 Dec 2007 02:57

I'm so dissapointed I cant beleive we are even discussing it

Renegade
12 Dec 2007 03:23

Toxic, I agree with you, the problem is that when someone belives in something, they are very quick to come to its defense, which i guess you cant really blame them for. They forget that tables can be turned just as easily, as u state in your example abt using Satan, and they wouldn't have uttered a word, and because Satanists are wrong in the eyes of a large majority, no one would come to their defense.
I guess the issue would be that Gareth said this on national radio, isnt it always the case? Like one always has to be oh so careful about what they say on radio. I must say though, he's a brave men that Gareth dude.

Dee
12 Dec 2007 03:42

@Toxic and renegade....yes we wouldn't have said anything if he said the same thing about satan because he is not our Lord ....satanists would have react not us.... (That's why every religion should be respected)....Hence I said on the article that he is entitled to believe what he wants but must not offend other people by insulting their Lord on air..... RESPECTING others' beliefs is the issue here.

Dee
12 Dec 2007 03:45

I meant 'satanists would have 'TO' react not us'.......sorry...

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 04:06

so what if he is an Aethist? Why can't he express his view from his point of view?

I understand what you're saying Dee and i guess what i'm trying to put across is that some people will want to speak about their beliefs and not with the intention of offending others but because they don't want to have to bite their tongues at the expense of them not saying what's true for them....get what i'm trying to say?

andi01
12 Dec 2007 04:35

As a devoted christian I would likr to say the following.
The statement has sadenned me, I feel sorry mostly for Gareth bcoz the Lord forgives all sin but not that of the person that insults him, (but Gareth doenst beleieve in God so there's no arguement here).
I feel sadenned that some people actually compare Gaad with teh evil one (but again if you not christian it doesnt matter.)
The bottom line is we should respect each other's religion, no one is forced to believe in what I believe in. If Gareth feels there is no Gaad thats his choice, who am i to tell him otherwise. I pray that the statement he made doesnt alter the faith of some christians and that it doesnt anger anyone, for the Lord's wrath returns in multiples. People be firm in your faith, I respect Gareth because he stood in his belief that there is no Gaad, but that doesnt deter me in my belief because i have seen his work and miracles in mylife.

Can I get an Amen, bazalwane

Dee
12 Dec 2007 04:42

Yes I do get what you saying Toxic.......but at the same time say for instance he was a Christian/Muslim not an Aethist....would it be proper for him to demean the Aethists on his breakfast show? ....NO...because even Aethists beliefs should be respected......He was out of line and should respect people's beliefs as much as he wants his to be respected....

Baby-A
12 Dec 2007 04:47

Mna as a Christian who knows God very well. I say.... Gareth needs to be prayed for... seriously. He said something he was not supposed to.

I'm gonna look for an email, now... that was tracing back as far as 1900... on what happened to some people who did what he did on air. He has declared war with the Supernatural, and unless we really pray for him, something quite bad is gonna happen to him.

Yha, he's entitled to his opinion, yes, he's got freedom of speech. But some thing are really sacred.

Xhosa Chick
12 Dec 2007 04:53

lawd.

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 04:58

but at the same time say for instance he was a Christian/Muslim not an Aethist....would it be proper for him to demean the Aethists on his breakfast show? ....NO...because even Aethists beliefs should be respected......He was out of line and should respect people's beliefs as much as he wants his to be respected....

If Gareth had said people that believe in God are stupid or something to that effect then yeah i'd have a problem with it. In the same way a Christian would be at fault for saying aethists are stupid. BUT if a Christian says God is great, broadcasting to nation that is widely Christian, i would still not have a problem because if i was an Aethist (non-believer) i would not feel offended.

For me, what Gareth says or does not say about God does not and should not change how i relate to God in my own space. I'm a believer and nothing anyone says will change that-whatever names they call Jesus/God does not change my belief in him.

So what i am saying is that Gareth did not say Christians are stupid although he might have implied that we are by believing in an egoist.

Out of interest: what brought about his statements, Dee?

Dee
12 Dec 2007 05:01

@ Andi01: AMEN gal......I feel you.....

AND

I would like to again emphasize the fact that People should Respect other people's beliefs....that is very important no matter which religion you belong to or whether you are an Aethist na kakade......otherwise we will cause ourself damage that can never be repaired.....GOD FORGIVES ALL SIN... BUT HE SINGLED OUT ONE SIN THAT CAN NEVER BE FORGIVEN whether you believe or not........and this is called UNPARDONABLE SIN and everybody should be aware of it.....

Matthew 12:31-32 STATES: "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.... Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come".

THAT IS WHY 'RESPECT' IS IMPORTANT.......for 'incase' GOD exists don't find yourself on his wrong side.

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 05:07

I look forward to reading that e-mail Baby-A....

Renegade
12 Dec 2007 05:09

Eish Dee, mina all I'm saying is that the guy said what he believes, he believes there is no God, that's his belief, and how different are you from him if you want to attack him for that? I don't agree with him personally, but I know that he is not alone in his view, and all he did was say what he felt, which should have no bearing on what I believe. If I believe strongly in my God, I will not change my way of thinking simply because Gareth Cliff said He does not exist.

And to now want to pray for him, is trully typical, but I'll leave that at that, lest we get into another argument.

And I'm also interested in what brought about his statement.

And to quote from the bible does nothing for someone who believes there is no God.

But ya, Toxic has said all that I think needs to be said

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 05:11

for 'incase' GOD exists don't find yourself on his wrong side.

I know this isn't meant to be funny but i can't help but laugh at the possibility that there may be christians (not saying you Dee) that believe cause they don't want to regret not beleiving in case there really is a God......

I'm a believer and God has done a lot for me (or should I say my BELIEF in him has) but at the same time i'm not too uptight about what other people believe/don't believe of my religion.

Now i understand why politics and religion are such touchy subjects....

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 05:13

Renegade, you said exactly what i was afraid to say:

he believes there is no God, that's his belief, and how different are you from him if you want to attack him for that? I don't agree with him personally, but I know that he is not alone in his view, and all he did was say what he felt, which should have no bearing on what I believe. If I believe strongly in my God, I will not change my way of thinking simply because Gareth Cliff said He does not exist.

And to now want to pray for him, is trully typical, but I'll leave that at that, lest we get into another argument.

lepogo
12 Dec 2007 05:17

God is not petty.Finish and klaar.

lepogo
12 Dec 2007 05:21

......Its just His followers are petty enough to defend the Creator,even judging and killing for His cause.

God is big enough to defend His Cause.

I cant do tha for Him,nor judge or criticize on His behalf.

No wonder we all see Muslims as this bigotted,even though their religion is not

Dee
12 Dec 2007 05:22

"If Gareth had said people that believe in God are stupid or something to that effect then yeah i'd have a problem with it. In the same way a Christian would be at fault for saying aethists are stupid. BUT if a Christian says God is great, broadcasting to nation that is widely Christian, i would still not have a problem because if i was an Aethist (non-believer) i would not feel offended. "

Toxic, he insulted GOD so automatically he insulted his followers.....its even more worse...it could have been better if he insulted us.

And definitely this doesnt affect how myself & other christians view God...not at all...the issue is the insults projected at our God which automatically affect us.

here is the link to the story (its 2 articles,just scroll down):
http://hottestgossip.co.za/index.php?paged=3

Baby-A
12 Dec 2007 05:24

Thanks Lepogo..... there's no argument here.... Whatever Gareth said should not even be entertained. Its not a debate. There's no way God can ever be petty.

joy
12 Dec 2007 05:26

Hes after sum controversy to get listership up, just like Usindiso will rub ppl up the rong way and its a pity it had to take that direction...

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 05:34

Thanks for the link Dee.....watsiba ke eng, I'm bowing out of this debate.

From the website:

I was livid when I received it. Gerda-Mari’s despicable, satanic wish on Gareth made my blood boil. I replied “to all” asking : When did God appoint her as his spokesperson? Received many replies agreeing.
Maybe she should become Father Christmas’s spokesperson ? ha ha ha

Wonder what that's about?

nonzuzo
12 Dec 2007 05:34

It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7)
"Be not deceived,God is not mocked, for who so ever a man soweth, that he shall also reap.

Dee
12 Dec 2007 05:54

Guys i just want to make these following points because it appears i'm misunderstood/misunderstood.....whatever the case is.

First of all: There could be NOTHING that can change the way I view my GOD or change my FAITH.

I'm not 'attacking' Gareth because he said what he believes in,as I said people are entitled to what they wanna believe in. I don't have a problem talking to people who do not believe in God... I cant make people believe what I believe...I repect their beliefs.
My reason for this blog is to stress RESPECT of each other's religions. If Gareth said "I dont believe in God" and he ends there,there cudn't have been a problem at all....thereis nothing wrong with that bcos that's what he believes in... but insulting GOD is another thing.

And Renegade, I quoted the Bible because I want to emphasise the importance of Respecting each others religion....I know it might look silly or whatnot...and I certainly know that it does nothing for someone who doesnt believe in God...hence I said (For in-case GOD exists)...this statement was directed to those who dont believe he exists...highlighting the fact that its better to keep quiet than making any negative remarks about God if you don't believe....or any other god for that matter.

"I know this isn't meant to be funny but i can't help but laugh at the possibility that there may be christians (not saying you Dee) that believe cause they don't want to regret not beleiving in case there really is a God......"
..lol..I get what you are saying but I wonder if there are christians that believe bcos of that. God is really amazing and when you experience him in your life you cant help but just fall inlove with him.....so people who would believe 'for incase' God exists have obviously not experienced his GREATNESS.

Dimago
12 Dec 2007 05:56

Religion, & politics - i wish people would leave well enough alone, cos they never agree!

Dee
12 Dec 2007 06:13

From the website:

I was livid when I received it. Gerda-Mari’s despicable, satanic wish on Gareth made my blood boil. I replied “to all” asking : When did God appoint her as his spokesperson? Received many replies agreeing.
Maybe she should become Father Christmas’s spokesperson ? ha ha ha

Wonder what that's about?

Toxic, this is a reply from a reader.....and regarding the Satanic Wish...this is the e-mail Gerda-Mari sent to Gareth:
You know what Gareth i love your show but this morning u shocked me!!!! just wanted to say, God is not petty!!!!! I pray that something drastic will happen in your life, that will allow you to experience the loving kindness and mercy of God and witness the power of His greatness so that you too can learn to fear our creator and talk of him only with respect. It is then that you will understand that our Heavenly Father can never be petty, and that it proves to be true that those who take His name in vain will not go unpunished. I will also pray that God will forgive you for belittling Him in front of his children.

Gerda might have been a bit extreme considering she was writing to a Non-believer; but there is absolutely nothing satanic about this mail. I don't expect people to understand her but the truth is 'people' only are able to witness & comprehend God's greatness when they go through hardships...that's what Gerda was trying to put accross...but as i said I don't epect people to understand that.

KeleFabulous
12 Dec 2007 06:18

MAKE LOVE NOT WAR...

lorrelai
12 Dec 2007 06:22

I have neither read the article nor any of the comments, but judging from the headline, for now I'll just say "OH NO HE DIDN'T!"

Luu
12 Dec 2007 06:23

Just thought i would verify a few things here.

I listen to Gareth's show every morning and i know how this all started.

There was a story about a British teacher in Sudan who let her class name a Teddy bear Mohammed. Now she was sentenced in a Sudanesse court to 15 days in prison. The Muslim community rebeled against this and said that she should get a much stronger sentence(Death sentence to be precise). The British government apologised and i don't know how that story ended.

Gareth was talking about this and saying he cant believe that Blasphemy (an offence for belittling or mocking religion) still exists in this day and age and he was going on and on about blasphemy and how they thought it dissappeared in the year 1600's and how they thouyght it doesn't have a place in this day and age. This was reported to the BCCSA(Broadcasting Complaints Commision of South Africa), he was found not guilty and for anything. He went on air and actually apologised for being misquoted and he was saying that that woman he wrote an email to was forwarding the email to all she knows and ppl were taking whatever happened out of context.

I really think ur facts are distorted Dee, I know we all love to blog but can we pls verify the facts first so that we can put things in context. I really am not on any1's side here I just thought facts would be good

Dee
12 Dec 2007 06:25

Kele its LOVE sweets.........ALL DA WAY!

Dee
12 Dec 2007 06:37

Luu dear, I hear you and I respect your opinion....but I got the back-ground of this story before blogging trust me....I wouldn't write about something whilst I didnt get the whole strory.
As you can see on the article,my focus was on the 'mails' that Gareth and Gertha exchanged not the Original Sudan story. The issue in this case is the comments he made...not matter which God he was refering to....

lepogo
12 Dec 2007 06:55

Has anyone realised that Gareth and Gertha are anagrams of each other????

Meaning,you can build the name Gareth out of Gertha's name???

Weird???

Dee
12 Dec 2007 07:02

LOL @ Lepogo....yeah its weird though.....

lorrelai
12 Dec 2007 07:09

@ Andi01 at :12/12/2007 12:35:21 PM, I say Amen Mzalwane.

Renegade
12 Dec 2007 07:10

Lol @ Lepogo. Very weird.

Shirmell
12 Dec 2007 07:10

When I heard what Gareth said, I was completely shocked and immediately I feared for him, I really did. It has been noted there are many famous people who made similar comments against God/Jesus and God showed them that He truly exists, thats all I'm going to say on the topic.

ngwana
12 Dec 2007 07:13

LOL!!! Gareth is so funny.
Remember when he interviewed Jesus.

Dee
12 Dec 2007 07:16

Amen Shirmell...that was a mouthful!

Baby-A
12 Dec 2007 07:31

Guys.... here's the email i was talking about:

DID YOU KNOW THESE FACTS?
I SURE DIDNT TILL NOW

Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!

Make a personal reflection about this.....

Very interesting, read until the end.....
It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked:
for whatsoever a man soweth,
that shall he also reap.

Here are some men and women
who mocked God :

John Lennon (Singer):

Some years before, during his interview with an American
Magazine, he said:

"Christianity will end, it will disappear.
I do not have to argue about
that. I am certain.

Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, Today we are
more famous than Him" (1966).

Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus
Christ, was shot six times.

Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil ):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000
votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.

Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made
President, then he died.

Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):

During A show in Canecio (Rio de Janeiro ),

while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into
the air and said: "God, that's for you."

He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.

The man who built the Titanic

After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how
safe the Titanic would be.

With an ironic tone he said:
"Not even God can sink it"

The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic
.

Marilyn Monroe (Actress)

She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.

He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her.
After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said:
"I don't need your Jesus".

A week later, she was found dead in her apartment .

Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
"Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to
hell".

On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had
been choked by his own vomit.

Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a
friend.....
The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about
the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her
hand, who was already seated in the car:

"My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You.."
She responded: "Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause
Inside Here.....It's Already Full "

Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a
fatal accident, everyone had died,
the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but
surprisingly, the trunk was intact.

The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained
intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none
was broken .

Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the
Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written.

In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor
vehicle .

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other
name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.

Many have died, but o

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 07:50

'people' only are able to witness & comprehend God's greatness when they go through hardships...that's what Gerda was trying to put accross...but as i said I don't epect people to understand that.

Thanks Dee. Those words in bold unfortunately sum up the start of my relationship with God. In fact the majority of moments when i've called out for him were moments of deep despair but i'm glad i made that initial contact!

Luu, thanks for the background.....

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 07:51

Baby-A, i have reservations about that e-mail but i'll keep them to myself for now.

Dee
12 Dec 2007 07:59

Toxic.....I dont understand the 'unfortunate' part sana....please explain......

lepogo
12 Dec 2007 08:03

Hs anyone thought of God as a loving and forgiving being??If John 3:16 is true,then Gareth has a chance in hell!!

If He is a forgiving God,I dont believe we must fear for Gareth,rather pray and intercede om his behalf.

Now that is what Christ would have done for Him-He wouldnt have fired a fire and brimstone mail to tell Him how bad He is or cruel will he die.

So much for Christianity..

Ive come to learn to NEVER defend God-GAreth is not the first one to ridicule Him nor will he be the last.And in every situation,God has proved outlast and outlive them.

So,I repeat,it makes this debate a bit petty and unchristianlike...

azHOT
12 Dec 2007 08:26

Dee
12 Dec 2007 08:37

I really dont think Baby-A or anybody else is saying Gareth will die(GOD FORBID)....but I think Baby-A is just stressing what the bible is saying 'God should not be mocked'.

And we were not trying to defend God here,we were just stating 'bible' based facts, highlighting what the bible says relating to this topic....all we can hope for is that we all learn something from this discussion and not repeat the same mistakes.

Toxic
12 Dec 2007 08:54

Toxic.....I dont understand the 'unfortunate' part sana....please explain......

Just that i wished i had grown up with an appreciation for God and that i praised and workshipped him more than i do. Basically i think i'm taking advantage of his goodness and mercy and more often than not, bargain with him (e.g if he sees me through a hurdle then i'll praise him more or i won't miss church or i'll read the bible daily, or i'll tithe etc). Like a child running back to his mama when in trouble but ignoring her when he throws parties, gets promotions etc.....

lorrelai
12 Dec 2007 09:22

Hey Tox, Dee!

Dee
12 Dec 2007 12:05

Hey Lo.......!

Tox gurl that's what I thought u meant but I just wanted to make sure...but I dont think you should regard it as 'unfortunate' because at least you know him (other people are not that fortunate...) be grateful that you have that connection with him, you just need to make things right where you think you need to make them right..........we all need to do that because no one is perfect in our path with the Lord.....we just need to constantly try to make things right.......

Meme J
12 Dec 2007 12:16

Don't know Gareth well: we don't get his show here in Namibia. Think the way he put it was unfortunate, and maybe it came the wrong way. If he'd said: 'I don't believe in God', it's one thing. But in saying 'there is no God', people would see it as trampling on their beliefs. Religion will always be controversial!!! And, of course, Christianity is also about forgiveness ...

Amazingly
12 Dec 2007 13:04

He just wants some attention and he knows this is one way to get it.
Shame. what an unfortunate person.

Meme J
12 Dec 2007 13:22

@Amazingly: So u think it's Idols' spotlight withdrawal symptoms, then?!!!

Cloud9
12 Dec 2007 13:28

Only saw this post now so I'm late to the convo. I have two points. The first is that I don't see how someone claiming God doesn't exist is particularly offensive. By that same token, you'd have to argue that confidently declaring the existence of God is offensive to non-Christians and atheists.

Declaring God to be petty is once again about as offensive as the preachers on Rhema TV or TBN declaring that non-Christians/unmarried mothers/gay people or whoever are sinners bound for hell. Religious tolerance runs both ways including tolerance for non-believers to comment on religion and the aspects thereof.

The second point is that I am tickled pink by the irony of someone offended by Gareth's statements about God being petty forwarding an email which has God smiting people in horrible ways for pissing him off. That's pretty darn petty if you ask me.

This is from a dirty heathen who doesn't even like Gareth Cliff but in the list of Stupid Things Gareth Cliff Has Said, this doesn't rate. Yeah, he put his beliefs in controversial terms but he's a shock jock. Since when has he ever been diplomatic?

Amazingly
12 Dec 2007 13:41

@Amazingly: So u think it's Idols' spotlight withdrawal symptoms, then?!!!
For sure. he was pretty much ignored at the press conference so maybe he just wanted to redirect the attention to himself.

Cloud9 - i agree with you WRT that chain letter.

The thing we are arguing about here is people's opinion. No-one can put words into God's mouth, no one knows what He thinks etc etc etc - so Gareth was just looking to spark off some sort of reaction but stating an OPINION.

And we all know his opinions are worth squat.

witty lady
12 Dec 2007 13:41

I never take that Garreth guy seriously...... his opinion is not important to me.
What's importsnt is what I think... and God is Great.

Meme J
12 Dec 2007 14:08

@Cloud9 ::::: The second point is that I am tickled pink by the irony of someone offended by Gareth's statements about God being petty forwarding an email which has God smiting people in horrible ways for pissing him off. ::::: .................... I love God smiting things!!! Smiting just sounds so mighty ... and ... smiting. 'And He smote them ... ' .......... And what about 'vengeance is mine ... '!!! Those prophets had a way with words and Gareth obviously doesn't have. More like a love affair with ... squat (tx @Amazingly!). .................. Back to the serious, guess the question is where tolerance starts to step on respect's toes :) ... Eish!

Meme J
12 Dec 2007 14:33

It's that time of the night ... and with all due respect to the firmaments ... just as we're talking about God, check it out: heavenly starts updating their settings. Signs from above!!! Ha, ha.

Renegade
13 Dec 2007 00:13

Cloud 9, I couldn't have said it better myself, especially regarding that email that was posted above!

Amazing
13 Dec 2007 00:33

We are a weird bunch of people here at TVSA. WE bash people on a daily basis mercilessly and then when someone else exercises his rights (freedom of speech) we chastise him to hell and back. Stop being hipocrites guys. GC is intitled not to believe in GOD. It's his funeral and it wont affect your entry into the pearly gates of heaven.

MamaOmpha
13 Dec 2007 00:58

I just think some things are better left unsaid even if you believe in them and even when you have freedom of speech.

Gareth was wrong for saying that.

Amazing
13 Dec 2007 01:09

God gave us free will for a reason. I respect Gareth Cliff Cliff for the radical statement he made. We are so called belivers but we take part and condone ungodly acts on a daily basis.

I have no right to judge anyone because God did not give me that authority. EVen if he had I wouldn't deserve it. I'm a fornicater, a drunk, a gambler, I use my fathers name in vain, I get jealous of the most stupid things.

My point is we're not that different. Jesus never judged anyone no matter how sinful they were.

Renegade
13 Dec 2007 01:22

So MamaOmpha, who gets to decide which things are better left unsaid?

andi01
13 Dec 2007 01:57

@Amazing, the sins you have mentioned above, are according to the bible, forgiven. The one thing that provoked the christian clan is the fact that out of all the sins that Gareth could have commited, he chose the one that the Lord has specifically said that it is unforgiven. I dont think christians are angry @ what Gareth said nor are we defending Gaad, but we just feel sorry for Gareth that even if one day he sees Gads miracles in his life and decides to repent to christianity, Gaad will never forgive him. He can be 100% christian, a Lord-obeying citizen but at the end he will go to hell, for the sin he has commited is unfogivable.

*NB my comments are that of a believer, my views are purely from a christian perspective, no offense intended to non-beleievers, but I believe as Christians we ought to stand up and say what we feel, for the name of our CREATOR, has been drugged through the mud. It sadenns us the fact that someone we think highly of was pettied, but that doesnt alter our faith, we wouldnt be debating if it had.

azHOT
13 Dec 2007 01:59

initially i intended to keep silent because i've been "talking" a lot of crap lately but my loudmouth personality fails me yet again.

the issue is not whether God exists or God is petty. It appers the issue is Gareth not being allowed to be. The man says he doesn't believe there is a God. so? if you believe as most of us seem to that should be sufficient. its not shocking to hear someone's different view or at least it shouldn't be.

Toxic
13 Dec 2007 02:09

Gareth that even if one day he sees Gads miracles in his life and decides to repent to christianity, Gaad will never forgive him.

I disagree.

Amazing
13 Dec 2007 02:18

@ Toxic I second that.

@AND01According to my knowledge the unforgivable sin is suicide. I must be reading the wrong bible or something. You can't force your beliefs down anyone's throat. Gareth will see the error of his ways at the right time. I'm a believer and I was taugh to love everyone and not judge them. Because i'm not perfect and I'm assuming you're a person. So you're not perfect either. We will answer for our own mishaps come judgement day, GAreth included.

lepogo
13 Dec 2007 02:26

@Toxic,

I disagree too.At worst,the statement is toxic*excuse the pun* and it is not a true reflection of the God I worship.If He is sooooooooo cruel,then I dont intend to be a Christian any longer.

And that will make Him petty.

ngwana
13 Dec 2007 02:29

Gareth that even if one day he sees Gads miracles in his life and decides to repent to christianity, Gaad will never forgive him. He can be 100% christian, a Lord-obeying citizen but at the end he will go to hell, for the sin he has commited is unfogivable.

Then you are saying God is petty.

andi01
13 Dec 2007 02:30

@Toxic, you disagree please elaborate, are you saying that even though had said in the bible that those who mock him or make fun of his name will never be forgiven

Amazing
13 Dec 2007 02:33

@Ngwana You took the words straight out of my fingers.

andi01
13 Dec 2007 02:34

@Ngwana, i will never say that trust me

Shirmell
13 Dec 2007 02:39

I disagree as well Tox. God is a forgiving God and He will forgive if you come to Him and repent. Don't let that knock on your door get so loud that you still fail to open it.....

Very very interesting topic, the one thing that gets us going, right?

The thing is I just feel sorry for non-believers because I personally experience God's love in my life on a daily basis and for someone not to experience it, is quite frankly, SAD.

lepogo
13 Dec 2007 02:40

@andi01,

H did not necessarily make fun of God or mock Him.He simply alluded to the fact that IF God gets offended when ppl name teddies after Him,then He is petty.

The unforgivable sin,as I read the bible*did that last night* refers to ppl who are stubborn in their erring ways even after they have been shown the light.

And to be honest,the political blogs are more fun than the religious ones,cos organised religion is dogmatic and indoctrinating.Nothin like God.Remember it has not been long since we stopped killing others who didnt believe that the world is NOT the centre of the universe??

Therefore,I find organised religion fascistious and ungodly,I mean we are even willing to condemn others to hell with no hope for redemption.If religion is true and if there is heaven and hell,then it will mean that the bible is very true where it says whatever is bound on earth is also bound in heaven,and whatever is loosened on earth is also loosened in heaven.

It effectively means we have committed Gareth to hell.

azHOT
13 Dec 2007 02:40

@andi01= God forgives all sins as along as your heart is pure and your repent is true, that's why his son was crucified to allow us to seek absolution when need be.

@Amazing: @AND01According to my knowledge the unforgivable sin is suicide

there are only two people that know whats going on in a person who commits suicide-God and that person and God is in even better understanding of it than the person himself.

Toxic
13 Dec 2007 02:43

smthng along what Lepogo wrote : it is not a true reflection of the God I worship.

I refuse to believe that the God of "mercy and love" would turn His back on someone seeking repentance cause if that were the case, then he really would have an ego! He might as well be mortal and my equal if that's the case and why would i want to worship or revere someone like that?

Andi, in the end we all have unique relationships with God and we take from the bible what is true for us....i don't believe half the stuff in the bible and i don't understand why it should be so contradictory if it's supposed to guide us in our quest for a holy life. So, what one book/gospel describes as unforgivable could very well turn up to be forgivable in another book.

I won't go into verses cause as you may have figured out, i read very little of the bible and those verses that have seen me through my hurdles have nothing to do with this discussion, so i can't quote them :p

witty lady
13 Dec 2007 02:45

GARETH NEEDS JESU in his life serious!

Gucci
13 Dec 2007 02:45

This matter does not need entertainment, I forgive it though coz this is Blogging and we are free to comment about anything. I will rather not name and shame people - thats not in My interests right now. One thing I'm sure of though, GC himself is even surprised of how far his 1 second comment has gone.

Looking from other angles though, I have learnt a thing or too on this article. We learn everyday!

GOD is GR8!!

witty lady
13 Dec 2007 02:50

exorcism.

Amazing
13 Dec 2007 02:52

@AZhot According to my (evidently) limited knowledge, you need to repent from your sins before you die and not on your way to the pearly gates. So can you please explain the point to your statement further.

Dee
13 Dec 2007 02:55

From Cloud09:
Only saw this post now so I'm late to the convo. I have two points. The first is that I don't see how someone claiming God doesn't exist is particularly offensive. By that same token, you'd have to argue that confidently declaring the existence of God is offensive to non-Christians and atheists.

We are not offended by some1 claiming God doesn't exist but calling him 'petty' is the issue. He could have just said God doesn't exist fullstop....that could have been cool.

Declaring God to be petty is once again about as offensive as the preachers on Rhema TV or TBN declaring that non-Christians/unmarried mothers/gay people or whoever are sinners bound for hell. Religious tolerance runs both ways including tolerance for non-believers to comment on religion and the aspects thereof.

We should differentiate what the bible says and what the preachers on TBN or Rhema say. What is mentioned above is what the BIBLE says not the preachers. These people are just uttering what is in the bible.........it doesn't mean they are 'holy/better' people(NO ONE IS), they are merely conveying what the bible says...and that is not 'judging'
Stipulating or standing up on what the Bible says doesn't make you a 'holy/better' person but just someone who stands up for God's word.

MamaOmpha
13 Dec 2007 03:03

All Im saying is if Gareth does not believe in God that fine. He should have stopped right there. But going on and saying that God is petty then just offensive to some of us who believes in him.

There are a lot of thing that I don't believe in but I would never bad mouth them just because I do not believe in them.

Cloud9
13 Dec 2007 03:16

Dee, he did not even call God petty. He said that "if" God is offended by such small things as a teddybear, then he is petty. The "if" seems to be lost in the debate but it is an important qualifier in his statement.

And even had he said something like "God is a petty bastard", then it is his right to say it. You can get offended by it but to try and stop him from being able to say it on air is censorship. Why should religion be exempt from criticism or be treated with kid gloves? Christianity has been around for 2000 years. I'm sure it'll survive a radio jock calling God petty.

>>We should differentiate what the bible says and what the preachers on TBN or Rhema say. What is mentioned above is what the BIBLE says not the preachers. These people are just uttering what is in the bible.........it doesn't mean they are 'holy/better' people(NO ONE IS), they are merely conveying what the bible says...and that is not 'judging'
Stipulating or standing up on what the Bible says doesn't make you a 'holy/better' person but just someone who stands up for God's word.<<

Eh, it's all a matter of interpretation. They're giving their interpretation of the bible which happens to be a very fundamentalist and conservative reading. The countless sects and offshoots of Christianity are prime example that even within religion, no-one can agree on one solid interpretation of what the bible says.

But they are allowed to have their opinions no matter how much people might disagree with them or find it offensive. It's the nature of free speech.

Speaking of offensive statements, as an unbeliever I find statements like the Gerda woman's letter that claim "I hope you find God" or "I feel sorry for you and will pray for you to see the light". I think they're condescending and dismissive of my beliefs. Should I campaign for people not to be allowed to say things like this because they might be offensive or is it only believers who deserve not to be offended?

Dee
13 Dec 2007 03:17

Amen mamaOmpha....
And another thing that we should remember is the BIBLE is not just a book like any other book, it is a sacred book. Therefore it should not be read like any other book because it is EXTENSIVELY DEEP....we have to dig deep into it & ask God to reveal what he means by that particular extract we are reading to understand what it really means....that's why people think its confusing but it is in reality NOT...we just read it like a normal book, which is not.

Toxic
13 Dec 2007 03:37

yeah the biggest problem with christians/believers is that they don't want to hear other people's opinion on religion but will gladly force their beliefs on others.......it's like a closed mindset we insist on having and that's our biggest weakness i think. This blog would probably have been dismissed as rubbish if it had come from an aethist's point of view.

Shirmell
13 Dec 2007 03:40

Ag man, as Cloud has said each person has their own beliefs or non-beliefs, we can't force what we believe down the next person's throat, we should just respect each other but I have to admit I'm loving everyone's comments on the matter.

lepogo
13 Dec 2007 03:46

@Toxic

As i said earlier,fascistidous?

Cloud9
13 Dec 2007 03:48

Dee, to Hindus/Muslims/Jews/Buddhists/Pagans/Atheists/whatever, the bible is just another book. They are not entitled to treat the bible as any more important than Christians are entitled to treat the Koran or Talmud or the Bhagavad Gita as sacred and infallible. You must understand that not everyone shares the same religion or worldview and thus should not be required to follow the same laws and tenets of a religion they don't follow.

Er, basically what Tox said. Everyone has the right to follow one's own beliefs, no-one has the right to force their's on others. And no, stating what one believes on air is not forcing it. :-)

Trix
13 Dec 2007 03:53

I'm a bit of a late comer to this forum guys.... but I think Gareth should be left alone to believe in what(who)ever he wants. I've got christian friends, friends of other faiths as well as those who prefer not to believe in anything, we all tolerate each other..... I don't try and shove my christianity down their throats. Guys this world is filled with so many gods....if you're happy with your god its fine with me!!

It's my personal choice to believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son & the Holy Spirit ..... I wasn't born a believer but at the fullness of time I made a personal soul-saving choice to be born again. We all have our time... but unfortunately some never get that opportunity.

God is God, He is not only great but He is Almighty and nothing we say or do will ever change that. He's a loving God..... He loves you Gareth and nothing you ever say or do will change that.

KeleFabulous
13 Dec 2007 04:31

mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm....

Brown Shuga
13 Dec 2007 04:37

<<mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm....>> I agree!!

Dee
13 Dec 2007 04:37

Cloud 09 I hear you gal and I understand he said "IF"...this is his statement: ".....“If God is great, why would he be so easily offended by what a mortal man says? If God has such an ego, then he must be petty.”
I mean you must agree with me that even if he said 'IF' this satement is demeaning...He could have chosen better words if he had respect for other religions because some of his listeners are followers of the god he is refering to.

Dee, to Hindus/Muslims/Jews/Buddhists/Pagans/Atheists/whatever, the bible is just another book. They are not entitled to treat the bible as any more important than Christians are entitled to treat the Koran or Talmud or the Bhagavad Gita as sacred and infallible. You must understand that not everyone shares the same religion or worldview and thus should not be required to follow the same laws and tenets of a religion they don't follow.
Gal i was referring to Christians when I was talking about the bible not everybody....I know for sure that other religions do not read the bible....I wouldn't be that naive.....hope you understand.

AS i mentioned on my other comments it just goes back to respecting other people's religions.When I posted this article I was aware that the comment Gareth made was directed to a Muslim God (Mohammed) who I don't believe in..... So my emphasis are merely on Respecting other people's religions which he did not do in this case....All in all I hope we all learnt one or two things from this discussion and we should respect each others religions as we ought to.
And I do agree that Gerda went overboard with her comments, but I don't blame her because only her knows the experiences/relationship she has with God and she took it quite personal. I'm sure she also learnt from this experience, and I'm sure Gareth learnt something too. I wish him the best!

BLESSINGS to everyone!

Brown Shuga
13 Dec 2007 04:50

Dee, where did you find that picture of Beyonce?

Dee
13 Dec 2007 04:54

Nantsi ilink:
www.hottestgossip.co.za

Brown Shuga
13 Dec 2007 05:08

enkosi sana, I have seen laa movie benithetha ngayo nooIni....unayo?

Toodecent
13 Dec 2007 05:12

Are you all aware you have commited sins here..? Amen...you werent supposed to call Gods name so many times...Amen... And for those that dont believe in him...Amen...your father in the other..Amen...wouldnt appreciate you calling the mighty ones name..Amen. hi hi hi hi.

lepogo
13 Dec 2007 05:18

@TDC,
Please roll me sum of what you been smoking,so that I be able to trawl the web the same way you do....

Cloud9
13 Dec 2007 05:33

Dee, I just can't see the "if" statement as demeaning. Without the "if", I could see why people are up in arms but the "if" changes the entire statement. That said, you guys have every right to find it offensive. My beef is with the trying to remove these kinds of controversial statements off the airwaves not with talking about them or getting offended.

>>Gal i was referring to Christians when I was talking about the bible not everybody....I know for sure that other religions do not read the bible....I wouldn't be that naive.....hope you understand.<<
Sorry, I thought you were speaking generally to everyone reading. Please don't think I was talking down to you.

One thing about religious tolerance. Everyone has the right to practise their own religion but this does not preclude others from criticising or commenting on religion either. By removing the right to criticise or blaspheme, you also remove that tolerance. Just look at the Inquisition and other periods of extreme religious intolerance and you will see that there was no freedom of speech with regards to religion.

Honestly, I think statements like Gareth's can only be good whether you agree or not. Just look at the debate generated here. Anything that gets people asking questions and thinking critically (especially about things that are personal to them) is all right by me.

Peace, love and respect, everyone.

Toodecent
13 Dec 2007 05:34

Cyber zolo mfethu....tshwara foo *puff..& pass*

ngwana
13 Dec 2007 05:43

Cloud 09 thank you for putting in words what i have been thinking.

lepogo
13 Dec 2007 05:49

Hooooooooooo,thnks bra,is that a Zebra??

Dee
13 Dec 2007 06:25

@Brownshuga: No sana andinayo but my friend has it......you need to check it out sisi!

One thing about religious tolerance. Everyone has the right to practise their own religion but this does not preclude others from criticising or commenting on religion either. By removing the right to criticise or blaspheme, you also remove that tolerance. Just look at the Inquisition and other periods of extreme religious intolerance and you will see that there was no freedom of speech with regards to religion.

Girl you can criticize without insulting/looking down on other people/God or blaspheming, which is where 'respect' comes in... I disagree with you on the above statement because it is as if you are condoning 'Blasphemy' and that is not right....that's just my opinion.
People are entitled to say what they want but respecting people around you is important...I would never demean Muslim God or Buddist or any god because I respect them and their beliefs.....Is this religious tolerance?YES...I can't go about insulting them and their God just because I don't have same beliefs with them...no!

Cloud9
13 Dec 2007 07:36

Criticism of an idea of institution does not necessarily entail looking down on its followers. If I, for example, criticise the violent extremism of fundamentalists who follow a particular religion, I am not trying to insult that religion. If I criticise a political party's policies, am I calling everyone who supports that party idiots? Of course not.

And blasphemy is a very tricky thing. One person's blasphemy might be completely OK to another person. Just look at this Muhammed teddy bear saga. What is blasphemy? Is it saying "oh my God"? A chocolate sculpture of Jesus? The Virgin Mary appearing on a piece of toast? Muhammed the teddy? Everyone is going to have a different definition. There are Christians in these very comments who have asked "What's the big deal?" about this Gareth Cliff kerfoeffel so clearly not everyone sees this the same way.

So then, do we just ban anything that might be remotely offensive just to be safe? We could except pretty much everything is going to be offensive to someone. Everyone is always going to have to deal with things that might be offensive to their religion or lifestyle or whatever, because humans are all so wildly different that it's impossible to not offend someone. You can't impose your standards of what is offensive/blasphemous on someone else.

This said, I agree with you about not insulting others' religions or being a general doos. But if someone does do it, either intentionally or (more often) unintentionally, I don't see it as the end of the world either. Adults can't and shouldn't be mollycoddled.

Dee
13 Dec 2007 08:19

Criticism of an idea of institution does not necessarily entail looking down on its followers. If I, for example, criticise the violent extremism of fundamentalists who follow a particular religion, I am not trying to insult that religion. If I criticise a political party's policies, am I calling everyone who supports that party idiots? Of course not.
Girl he didn't criticise 'an institution' which in this case is the Muslim religion he criticized their GOD...those are two different things....I believe, I stand corrected.

You do make sense ....but at the same time as an adult who lives in a society you logically know what can be offensive or not to other people.....There is a degree of common sense to know what can be offensive or not in society wherever you come from.... then if you don't care you will just go ahead and say whatever you want to say even though you know it 'might' offend others. That is why i said if he respected others religions he could have chosen better words or said what he wanted to say diplomatically so that it doesn't come as 'offensive' (that could have diplayed a bit of respect even though he expressed his feelings)...But then at the same time we are not the same as people.....some people would not want to intentionally hurt others, whilst others just do not care.......they follow their hearts and do whatever they want to do no matter how wrong it is, which is why Laws and jails were established....

But I'm glad I'm having this convo with you, i'm learning a lot from you even though I don't agree with some of the things you say.
Stay blessed....

Titanic
13 Dec 2007 08:35

I know I'm a 'silent blogger' but i couldn't resist this...

Religion is deeper than we think we know, and bible is something we would NEVER understand no matter how hard we try. What you hear from one gospel is totally the opposite on the other one, someone said there's a way of reading a bible as it is not any other book, i read a book and try to understand what's really going on, but when i read this SACRED book i get more confused. Can somebody help me with the 'art' of reading a bible?

By the way Cloud9, your English is killing man, you have them quzmatic words there. To be honest some of your words u use i have never heard them before!!!!!!!!!!!!

six
14 Dec 2007 07:03

I'm a Christian, and I don't see what the big deal is. Yes, I don't agree with him, but that is why we were given free will.... he will have to live with the consequences... The Bible says that we should not judge, its not our place to say who's right and who's wrong. If this is what Gareth Cliff chooses to believe then its his problem.

Dee
14 Dec 2007 08:59

What you hear from one gospel is totally the opposite on the other one, someone said there's a way of reading a bible as it is not any other book, i read a book and try to understand what's really going on, but when i read this SACRED book i get more confused. Can somebody help me with the 'art' of reading a bible?

I don't think there is a specific 'art' but praying before reading it might help because it is a SACRED book.

By the way Cloud9, your English is killing man, you have them quzmatic words there. To be honest some of your words u use i have never heard them before!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree.............

@six, refer to comments above in relation your comment.

have a great weekend y'all.

joy
14 Dec 2007 09:13

Different writers wrote the 4 gospels, from their own perspectives, on what they thot was NB 4them. its very inspirational, esp. when some1 explains it to u and its whole meaning and context!
DEE, gr8 1, thnx!

Meme J
14 Dec 2007 10:36

A really stimulating debate! I've held off on this for two days as I don't want to risk sounding heavy .... Gareth's comments are one thing, and think they've been pretty extensively covered. .................... But what has been bugging me are some of the broader issues like freedom of speech, censorship and tolerance!!! Yes, freedom of speech is a precious right, but it does come with responsibilities. Also, it is only one part of the equation. ................... Being critical and questioning accepted norms is one thing. But comments CAN also cross the line, cross boundaries, i.e. into race speak, hate speech, incitement to prejudice, incitement to violence, etc. The fact of having the right to do something does not mean it should be exercised without restraint. Debate on this also erupted a couple of years back in the wake of satirical cartoons of the Islamic prophet Muhammed published in a Danish newspaper. There was a huge international controversy. .................... Hey, I don't want to sound like I'm on a pulpit :) :) ... just want to throw some more views into the pot. .................... So, yes, we do need tolerance, and to be tolerant, but in order to promote a tolerant society, there are times when we also need to be sensitive to, and respect, the cultural and religious rights of others. :::::::::: Peace and happy long weekend to y'all in SA :)

Dee
16 Dec 2007 08:49

Well said MemeJ...exactly my point..enjoy the weekend gurl!

Meme J
19 Dec 2007 14:04

Thanks, Dee! Only seen now. Have just found this on the M&G site :::: Commission says DJ did not link God to 'pettiness' Johannesburg, South Africa 19 December 2007 11:36 5FM radio station DJ Gareth Cliff did not make "petty" remarks about God, said the Broadcasting Complaints Commission of South Africa. On Wednesday the BCCSA released the findings of some of its recent tribunals, including a judgement handed down about remarks the morning DJ had made about God. "If it is such a big deal, I'm sure God will handle it, you know. If He is really that petty that he gets upset when you say his name, I'm sure He will send down appropriate punishment", Cliff said on a November 29 broadcast of his morning show. He was commenting on the case of a British teacher in Sudan who was sentenced to imprisonment for allowing a teddy bear to be named Muhammad. A seemingly organised campaign of callers then contacted the BCCSA to complain that Cliff's comments had been offensive and blasphemous. The broadcast complaint's commission ruled that Cliff's comments had not been blasphemous. In a judgement on December 6, the complaint against him was not upheld. - Sapa ::::: I've shortened it for posting, but if u want to read full article, the link is :: http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national&articleid=328132 Have a great Christmas!

Brown Shuga
21 Dec 2007 00:53

And this morning he called his co hosts "morons"...after they criticized his singing....I mean, imagine Gareth singing Neyo + Rihanna's Hate That I l Love You song...heheheh can't help but love him!

Dee
21 Dec 2007 07:45

Yeah i know...I really like him too....I like the fact that he is outspoken.....

Mitz001
02 Jan 2009 11:25

I agree with SIX

Everybody has there own opinion regarding different religions, however even if he does not believe in GOD there he should rather have said nothing! If you have nothing good to say the dont say anything at all.

I dont approve what he said, but GOD also says not to judge people as we are not perfect either but we know what GOD wants us to do.

God will decide....

I LOVE MY GOD!!!!! AND LIVE FOR HIM ONLY!!

Dee
12 Jan 2009 12:16

Thanx Mitz...I do agree with you, we are saying the same thing...he should have just kept it to himself if thats what he believes...to avoid some of his listeners getting offended.
I dont think anyone was trying to judge him...we cant say he is wrong or right, its his belief, but he sure did offend some people by saying that on national radio station.Which is where the issue is.

Shuga babe
12 Jan 2009 12:28

This is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo 2007

Cande
12 Jan 2009 12:32

DEE, kanti u still here?

felfel
12 Jan 2009 12:50

You guys are being petty by discussing this.............

Dee
16 Jan 2009 10:28

LOL...thanx felfel....

Yeah Cande, im still here gurlie!!!

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